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----- Loudness War (http://www.drumnbass.be/forum/thread.php?threadid=16354)


Posted by Ketz on 26-02-2009 at20:00:

  Loudness War

what are your thoughts on this guys? being relatively new to mastering I've done a bit of reading up on the whole thing and through my own experience with trying to get things really "loud" just to compete with stuff thats already out there can be quite frustrating.

Some interesting stuff you can find here:

http://www.turnmeup.org/

So I'm pretty much in favour of dynamics that can bring much more life to tracks as opposed to getting things as loud / overcompressed as possible but it just seems that things are heading that way..?

edit: check out the "loudness war" utube vid on there, clearly shows the difference



Posted by optikal_assassin on 26-02-2009 at21:39:

 

well, me personally, just as a matter of personal taste i like my music loud and overcompressed, within reason of course. i'd even take overcompressed music and leave the overall volume down too. it's just my personal taste though, not saying it's right but it has to also be within reason as i have said.



Posted by Halph-Price on 27-02-2009 at00:16:

 

it's all based on genere and actaul goal. i have known mixers that sending out the music to be mastered couldn't be there for the mastering because of conflicts, and they made the music more bright, even though the goal for the album was to have a bit darker of a mix. when it comes to it, it's all based on the direction and genere. you won't see the loudness war with diana krull music, but ketty perre will be there.



Posted by Sephiroth on 27-02-2009 at00:16:

 

i guess it depends on what your producing and what your up against i suppose....pop music should generally be o'ver-compressed' and pushing the limits to compete with its rivals and to stand out on the radio against other popular tracks etc...i personally prefer to push things a little but to always leave a little headroom, darker dnb is generally very bass heavy so pushing things too far will probably render unwanted results and sound pretty crap....then again i suppose it all depends on what your creating and personal preference......i think the whole loudness thing is debated far too much anyways....a great mix will sound great wherever and whenever..... Big Grin



Posted by Ketz on 27-02-2009 at01:16:

 

yeah I suppose it comes down to what genre / sub genre, if we're talking dnb some sub genres can get away with much better than others and in many ways benefit from being loud / powerful / heavily compressed (eg Noisia Block Control is a tune that doesn't hasn't got very much dynamic range, but it still works as a big wall of sound)



Posted by Sundancer on 27-02-2009 at09:41:

 

this definitely depends on the style. now, for drum'n'bass, a nicely compressed track will sound better at any level.



Posted by D2o on 27-02-2009 at10:09:

 

there is compressed then there is over compressed/limited where the waveform just looks like a solid block with less punch and dynamics which sadly, a lot is music is being subject too.



Posted by Sephiroth on 27-02-2009 at11:05:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Ghost
there is compressed then there is over compressed/limited where the waveform just looks like a solid block with less punch and dynamics which sadly, a lot is music is being subject too.



very true....but what happens when its pushed as far as it can go? where will music like britney spears and the other commerical shite go? i dont know how it can change tbh, record labels are always going to want to make their act sound bigger and better than the next and make the cd's 'loud' to stand out.

I'd like to see an increase in surround sound mixing personally, i reckon that might change things and would open up a whole new breed of different music. Big Grin



Posted by Crispy Liquids on 27-02-2009 at12:23:

 

We use compressors simply because the dynamics would remain to some extent...
I mean, if you use a compressor, the initial loudness of that snare would still be there, that's why there's an attack and release on a compressor: it only comes in effect after x miliseconds.

So what the guy in the video is saying about those parts being removed, is not true, at least not for people who use a compressor with an attack greater than 0 ms...

I don't deny that loudness is a nasty creature though, I have a loudness button on my music system here (the one for listening to cd's), and what's so bad about it is the fact that your music sounds fine without it, any track, sounds really good. You put loudness on, and you think hmm maybe for certain occassions this could be good, but most of the time I prefer it off. You put it off, and you'll notice your track seems to sound worse than before putting it on! It seems that your ears (or brains) immediately make a switch that needs some time to overcome...

Strange but true.
I think one reason for excessive limiting is MP3-players, they come with these things to put in your ears and obviously you don't want to put those too loud (very bad for your ears), but they want you to hear the whole song nevertheless so they try to get all sounds out of those speakers at even low volume levels. It makes sense, but for other occassions it's rubbish



Posted by Yawn on 27-02-2009 at12:41:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Sephiroth
I'd like to see an increase in surround sound mixing personally, i reckon that might change things and would open up a whole new breed of different music. Big Grin


A big 8.1 surround sound system in a club would be amazing. With elements panning around the room, stabs coming in from you don't know where.....this is the future indeed. Big Grin



Posted by Muad'Dib on 27-02-2009 at12:59:

 

Over-compression, is generally, a relative term. But, by common wisdom, it applies to having too much compression (on the edge with, or having pumping and other artifacts of wrongly used compression), which kills the dynamics of the sound so it can give an overall bigger perceived loudness.

Usually, modern audio mastering engineers leave about 6 or 3dB for them to work with the more dynamic parts which need emphasize - like a snare or kick drum.

Audio mastering has become an art in itself because everybody just want louder and louder, and mastering engineers really have to invent hot water to make their client's tracks louder when there is no space for it.

The top 6dB is a small difference, but just enough for a loud track with an existent snare drum.

I am in favor of dynamics myself. I believe tracks should have about 10dB of space for free breath. But, unfortunately, when your tune gets played in a club, it will appear too quiet, and the dj will fix the loudness by forcing the gain, and thus compressing the track. With a bad compressor. Big Grin



Posted by CULTURE BOY on 27-02-2009 at14:29:

 

this is one of the things i need help with Mad



Posted by demure on 27-02-2009 at15:09:

 

i would say that loudness will come down to the individual track in the sence that 1 track may be really loud due to certain elements within the tune and as a result its better to boost the loudness up to a point in relation to the material in the song just basically not overdoing it but thats just how i work i try to get the dynamics right without compression then just give the master fader a lift till it sounds right. thats just me though and im a complete noob lolWink



Posted by Muad'Dib on 27-02-2009 at17:43:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Yawn
quote:
Originally posted by Sephiroth
I'd like to see an increase in surround sound mixing personally, i reckon that might change things and would open up a whole new breed of different music. Big Grin


A big 8.1 surround sound system in a club would be amazing. With elements panning around the room, stabs coming in from you don't know where.....this is the future indeed. Big Grin

Yeah, that would be great for listening but... imagine what a hell that will be for mixing Devil



Posted by Halph-Price on 27-02-2009 at19:14:

 

and mono mixes will never die



Posted by Sephiroth on 27-02-2009 at20:20:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
quote:
Originally posted by Yawn
quote:
Originally posted by Sephiroth
I'd like to see an increase in surround sound mixing personally, i reckon that might change things and would open up a whole new breed of different music. Big Grin


A big 8.1 surround sound system in a club would be amazing. With elements panning around the room, stabs coming in from you don't know where.....this is the future indeed. Big Grin

Yeah, that would be great for listening but... imagine what a hell that will be for mixing Devil


would be a nightmare to mix but software/ hardware developers would graudually create some amazing tools to aid surround sound mixing, problem is, as far as i know, only nuendo and pro tools hd support surround sound mixing....i think its defo in the pipeline for future development tho and over the years its gonna get more popular, that might slow down this whole loudness war debate by giving engineer + mixers a whole new approach to creating mixes.



Posted by Halph-Price on 27-02-2009 at21:21:

 

you don't need 8 speakers to emulate surround sound, you only need 2 speakers to mimic complete 360 surround sound. BOSE.



Posted by Muad'Dib on 27-02-2009 at22:37:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Halph-Price
you don't need 8 speakers to emulate surround sound, you only need 2 speakers to mimic complete 360 surround sound. BOSE.

Yeah, but you need a special room for that. With 8 speakers (or at least 4) you can have whatever room which has enough space to put them all about and on enough distance.



Posted by BattleDrone on 27-02-2009 at23:14:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
quote:
Originally posted by Halph-Price
you don't need 8 speakers to emulate surround sound, you only need 2 speakers to mimic complete 360 surround sound. BOSE.

Yeah, but you need a special room for that. With 8 speakers (or at least 4) you can have whatever room which has enough space to put them all about and on enough distance.


It can be emulated on headphones too AFAIK they have 2 speakers.



Posted by Muad'Dib on 28-02-2009 at00:07:

 

quote:
Originally posted by BattleDrone
quote:
Originally posted by Muad'Dib
quote:
Originally posted by Halph-Price
you don't need 8 speakers to emulate surround sound, you only need 2 speakers to mimic complete 360 surround sound. BOSE.

Yeah, but you need a special room for that. With 8 speakers (or at least 4) you can have whatever room which has enough space to put them all about and on enough distance.


It can be emulated on headphones too AFAIK they have 2 speakers.

Yeah, I know, but they are too close to you, not affected by room shape, reverb etc.


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